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#1 Thursday 6th March 2014 08:10:14

Neckender
Member
From: Stoke On Trent
Registered: Tuesday 4th March 2014
Posts: 16

Fleet training

Hi there I already do my company's licence acquisition and driver training for LGV and I am now looking to tackle our 250+ company car drivers.

Your advice on how to become a fleet trainer is what i'm after.


"Anyone who tries to make a distinction between education and entertainment doesn't know the first thing about either"

DSA LGV Inst,DSA ADI,SaFED Inst,IAM Advanced Car & Commercial,PTLLS,RoSPA Dip.

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Thursday 6th March 2014 08:10:14

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Re: Fleet training



#2 Thursday 6th March 2014 10:02:56

ratty
Member
Registered: Saturday 5th February 2011
Posts: 471

Re: Fleet training

Are you an ADI?

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#3 Thursday 6th March 2014 11:06:32

Neckender
Member
From: Stoke On Trent
Registered: Tuesday 4th March 2014
Posts: 16

Re: Fleet training

No, is that the next stage?


"Anyone who tries to make a distinction between education and entertainment doesn't know the first thing about either"

DSA LGV Inst,DSA ADI,SaFED Inst,IAM Advanced Car & Commercial,PTLLS,RoSPA Dip.

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#4 Thursday 6th March 2014 16:00:23

ratty
Member
Registered: Saturday 5th February 2011
Posts: 471

Re: Fleet training

Qualifying as a fleet trainer comes after qualifying as an ADI.

Once you are an ADI you do not have to gain the fleet qualification, but I (and some others) think it helps with credibility.

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#5 Friday 7th March 2014 15:44:56

Neckender
Member
From: Stoke On Trent
Registered: Tuesday 4th March 2014
Posts: 16

Re: Fleet training

Right peeps, i've had the go ahead from work to become a Fleet trainer.

1st thing ADI.
2nd pass Fleet course.
Is there anything else I need to do?


"Anyone who tries to make a distinction between education and entertainment doesn't know the first thing about either"

DSA LGV Inst,DSA ADI,SaFED Inst,IAM Advanced Car & Commercial,PTLLS,RoSPA Dip.

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#6 Friday 7th March 2014 20:27:55

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: Wednesday 10th January 2007
Posts: 320

Re: Fleet training

Make sure after all this that you are paid what you are worth ...


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#7 Saturday 8th March 2014 10:19:55

ratty
Member
Registered: Saturday 5th February 2011
Posts: 471

Re: Fleet training

Neckender wrote:

Right peeps, i've had the go ahead from work to become a Fleet trainer.

1st thing ADI.
2nd pass Fleet course.
Is there anything else I need to do?

Think about passing a recognised (RoSPA is the most accepted in my experience) advanced driving test to gain another 'badge'.

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#8 Saturday 8th March 2014 10:57:08

sofasurfer
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: Tuesday 30th July 2013
Posts: 310

Re: Fleet training

Is all this really necessary or is it just collecting badges ? If you are teaching full licence holders as part of your employment contract and therefore not receiving payment directly as a result of instructing, do you need to be an ADI ?

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#9 Saturday 8th March 2014 11:50:18

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: Monday 24th October 2011
Posts: 861

Re: Fleet training

sofasurfer wrote:

If you are teaching full licence holders as part of your employment contract and therefore not receiving payment directly as a result of instructing, do you need to be an ADI ?

Yes you do. If not, you and your employer are both committing an offence.

Road Traffic Act 123(4).

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#10 Saturday 8th March 2014 13:05:08

ratty
Member
Registered: Saturday 5th February 2011
Posts: 471

Re: Fleet training

sofasurfer wrote:

Is all this really necessary or is it just collecting badges ? If you are teaching full licence holders as part of your employment contract and therefore not receiving payment directly as a result of instructing, do you need to be an ADI ?


Is this a serious question?

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#11 Saturday 8th March 2014 14:42:03

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: Thursday 5th March 2009
Posts: 754

Re: Fleet training

MGM wrote:
sofasurfer wrote:

If you are teaching full licence holders as part of your employment contract and therefore not receiving payment directly as a result of instructing, do you need to be an ADI ?

Yes you do. If not, you and your employer are both committing an offence.

Road Traffic Act 123(4).

Is the correct answer.

Firstly,I am an ADI and Fleet Registered. On retiring from the police, my view was that I wanted be capable of doing everything from learners to artics and to do that I'd need to be an ADI to deliver at least some of it.

Sofasurfers question is serious and justified (IMO).

How we arrived with those offences on the statute books is not so clear. In 1963 there was a debate in Parliament concerning the payment by learner drivers for instruction.
Parliament was concerned that as there was no set standard the industry could not be regulated. There was a voluntary register of Driving Instructors but, being voluntary, not many subscribed to it. A bill was drafted and became law in 1967 and is pretty much the same as S.123.

Now the rub, the intention was to regulate instruction to learners. At no point were FLH's mentioned and as for company drivers, Parliament and the lawmakers had never even thought about them. They have, over the passage of time, have been drawn into the Act.

For decades and even up to today companies will deliver driver training to their own staff in cars and vans up to 3500kgs. To the letter of the law that would be an offence if the trainer received payment. He is paid, he is not an ADI. Hundreds of companies up and down the country operate like this - just think of a new employee receiving a van induction.

In the last twenty years companies have become more risk savvy. They look to ways to lower their road risk (and possibly insurance premiums) and the market opened up for defensive driver trainers. Companies such as RoSPA will have a criteria for their trainers;
ADI Grade 5 or above, Fleet Registered, Advanced qualification, Diploma in Advanced Instruction, Presentation Skills, PTLLS, trained in the Management of Occupational Road Risk and capable of examining the policies and procedures in a company.


Should it be different in-house?

I'll leave you with this poser.

Who trains first response paramedics within the NHS?

Given as always honestly

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#12 Saturday 8th March 2014 14:51:48

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: Thursday 4th March 2004
Posts: 5,670

Re: Fleet training

DSA has always refused to take any action against off road tuition, even though that is covered by the act.  It ignores the current regulations and wrongly just concentrates on illegal tuition to learners.

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#13 Saturday 8th March 2014 18:48:07

sofasurfer
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: Tuesday 30th July 2013
Posts: 310

Re: Fleet training

Thank you TrunkMonkey :-)

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#14 Saturday 8th March 2014 19:35:59

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: Thursday 5th March 2009
Posts: 754

Re: Fleet training

sofasurfer wrote:

Thank you TrunkMonkey :-)

My pleasure smile

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#15 Saturday 8th March 2014 19:48:41

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: Saturday 7th June 2008
Posts: 449

Re: Fleet training

trunkmonkey wrote:

Who trains first response paramedics within the NHS?

Given as always honestly

And is a paramedic bike classed as an ambulance?

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#16 Saturday 8th March 2014 20:02:15

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: Thursday 5th March 2009
Posts: 754

Re: Fleet training

No. But there is a special dispensation regarding their use of exemptions until S.19 is enacted.

What is it's purpose?
To be a first responder and prepare the patient for the arrival of the ambulance.

Therefore, is it being used for an ambulance purpose?
Yes

And, being used for an ambulance purpose, can it use exemptions?
Yes

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#17 Saturday 8th March 2014 20:10:14

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: Monday 24th October 2011
Posts: 861

Re: Fleet training

trunkmonkey wrote:

No. But there is a special dispensation regarding their use of exemptions until S.19 is enacted.

What is it's purpose?
To be a first responder and prepare the patient for the arrival of the ambulance.

Therefore, is it being used for an ambulance purpose?
Yes

And, being used for an ambulance purpose, can it use exemptions?
Yes

There's no need for a special dispensation. The existing law covers those motorbikes: it exempts "any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire and rescue authority, ambulance or police purposes ..."

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#18 Saturday 8th March 2014 20:10:29

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: Saturday 7th June 2008
Posts: 449

Re: Fleet training

So is there legislation that permits the fitting of blue lights and sirens to car and bikes that dont meet the legal definition of an ambulance?

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#19 Saturday 8th March 2014 21:18:38

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: Monday 24th October 2011
Posts: 861

Re: Fleet training

daz6215 wrote:

So is there legislation that permits the fitting of blue lights and sirens to car and bikes that dont meet the legal definition of an ambulance?

There appears to be no connection between speed limit exemptions and blues and twos.

1.  The law allowing a speed limit exemption doesn't require them. [Road Traffic Regulation Act (1984), section 87.]

2.  Blue lights can only be fitted to "an emergency vehicle". No specific mention of ambulances. [Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, section 16]

3.  Sirens can be used by vehicles "used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes", among many others, including mine rescue and the RNLI.  [Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, section 37 (5)]

The speed limit exemption actually reads "No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes ... if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion."

Note that there is no mention there of an emergency. Speeding to avoid the chips getting cold would appear to be legal wink

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#20 Saturday 8th March 2014 21:40:46

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: Saturday 7th June 2008
Posts: 449

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#21 Sunday 9th March 2014 11:54:04

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: Thursday 5th March 2009
Posts: 754

Re: Fleet training

Lord-Castle was a one man band. He had a blue BMW 5 series estate and regularly attended RTC's. Not a problem until on one occasion he used a siren.
An astute Traffic PC knew the law (a surprise in itself these days). His vehicle clearly wasn't an ambulance, as it was not designed for the carriage of sick,injured or disabled persons and therefore he could only have a blue light and flashing headlights. He couldn't exceed speed limits, go through red lights or the wrong side of bollards.

His offence was under Con & Use Regs and the use of a siren. He claimed to be an ambulance but wasn't.

Not too dissimilar to the paramedic bikes and cars. They are not exempt. Legally, they are not ambulances so can't be used for an ambulance purpose, BUT, by 'tenuously' preparing the patient for the arrival of an ambulance they are within the definition.

There is a Working Party sitting as we speak looking at ways to update a definition that goes back to the 1930's. All police forces are aware and hence prosecutions are rare but it depends heavily on the use of the vehicle at the time.

I deliver blue light training to a company who have a NHS contract a) to deliver organs for human transplant and b) for the carriage of paediatric patients.

a) use Ford Mondeo estate cars for the organs and Vauxhall Vivaros to carry the Surgical Team.  LEGALLY, they can use the blue light, flashing headlights but not the siren. They have no other exemptions.
b) Use High Dependency Unit ambulances and can claim every exemption.

Prior to me delivering training a driver operating under a) collected 6 points for speeding on the A1 in Scotland.

So back to MGM's point   "any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes".
It has to fall within the definition of an ambulance. The decision in Lord-Castle makes it clear
Accordingly, the test to be applied is in my judgment a simple one: is the vehicle concerned used (or primarily used) for conveying the sick, the injured or disabled? If so, it is “used for ambulance purposes”. Otherwise, it is not.

Paramedic bike,car and a vehicle used to transfer organs are not used to convey the sick,injured or disabled and are therefore not used for an ambulance purpose.

Should they be included in exemptions?  Of course, but until the law is brought up to date they are out.

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#22 Sunday 9th March 2014 11:55:28

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: Thursday 5th March 2009
Posts: 754

Re: Fleet training

Anyhow, back to fleet training.
Where were we?

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#23 Sunday 9th March 2014 12:55:50

ratty
Member
Registered: Saturday 5th February 2011
Posts: 471

Re: Fleet training

Roadmaster wrote:

DSA has always refused to take any action against off road tuition, even though that is covered by the act.  It ignores the current regulations and wrongly just concentrates on illegal tuition to learners.

In the past the DSA has provided me with a written statement for use in court stating their opinion in relation to a case involving off-road driver training. I would agree that they themselves have never started a prosecution, but they have helped in at least one.

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#24 Sunday 9th March 2014 13:00:42

ratty
Member
Registered: Saturday 5th February 2011
Posts: 471

Re: Fleet training

Neckender wrote:

Hi there I already do my company's licence acquisition and driver training for LGV and I am now looking to tackle our 250+ company car drivers.

Your advice on how to become a fleet trainer is what i'm after.


Now look what you have started!!!! wink

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#25 Sunday 9th March 2014 17:18:54

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: Saturday 7th June 2008
Posts: 449

Re: Fleet training

ratty wrote:
Neckender wrote:

Hi there I already do my company's licence acquisition and driver training for LGV and I am now looking to tackle our 250+ company car drivers.

Your advice on how to become a fleet trainer is what i'm after.


Now look what you have started!!!! wink

Sorry  lol  lol  lol  wink

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