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#1 Sunday 1st July 2012 09:11:00

christhedrummer
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Registered: Wednesday 18th October 2006
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More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Morning all,

This has started to bug me recently.

When ID started and the diagrams were always shown I pretty much never had anyone go the wrong way or forget where they were going. Since the changes where the diagram isn't shown but "I have a diagram if it will help", I have people regularly going the wrong way and getting confused. It's not resulted in a fail but a few dodgy moments. I now advise everyone to say "I would like to see the diagram" regardless.

Has anyone else found this?

While I understand why the change was brought in, and it may have benefited the minority, I believe it has had a greater negative effect on the majority...

Just my thoughts

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Sunday 1st July 2012 09:11:00

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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...



#2 Sunday 1st July 2012 09:16:21

Roadmaster
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Registered: Thursday 4th March 2004
Posts: 5,679

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I'm the opposite.  I have always told my pupils to say they don't want to see the diagram to avoid any confusion, because the diagrams are crap.  They listen to the directions, and if they forget they just ask.

In real life when you ask someone for directions they don't show you a diagram do they?

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#3 Sunday 1st July 2012 09:40:22

Newrose
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From: burnley
Registered: Wednesday 25th January 2012
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I advise all student to opt for diagrams, mainly because some learner drivers take little longer to fully understand and absob all the information, before moving off.

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#4 Sunday 1st July 2012 15:29:34

graham121150
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From: Long Eaton
Registered: Monday 29th August 2011
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Interesting did not know they had changed it.
Don't think it cause pupils any problems on test, at least none have said anything about it. So I think I'll just carry on doing what I have been doing, which is just getting pupils to follows signs. And pointing out they sometimes get maps to follow.
Too must info causes problems

Graham

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#5 Sunday 1st July 2012 15:33:18

Roadmaster
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Graham, they don't get the maps when following signs, only when they get the direction instructions.

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#6 Sunday 1st July 2012 15:48:51

graham121150
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From: Long Eaton
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Just for Roadmaster

Interesting did not know they had changed it.
Don't think it cause pupils any problems on test, at least none have said anything about it. So I think I'll just carry on doing what I have been doing, which is just getting pupils to follows signs. And pointing out they sometimes get maps to follow.
Too must info causes problems ...... Unless you are Roadmaster never said they get both. maybe should use word OR

Graham

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#7 Sunday 1st July 2012 16:50:04

robcooling
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From: Nottingham
Registered: Thursday 2nd April 2009
Posts: 1,451
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I've made my own laminated maps similar to the test ones, I use them in my mocks so pupils become familiar with them.


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#8 Sunday 1st July 2012 18:45:07

MAZ
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From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: Tuesday 13th June 2006
Posts: 838

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I sat in on a test 2 weeks ago (4th in 24 years) at the insistence of the pupil, they were shown maps and NOT given an option, its the first time I got to look at this in operation.

The second map shown had a string of 3 roundabouts all shown equally apart on the diagram but in reality roundabouts 1 and 2 are about 1/2 a mile from each other and the 3rd about 3 miles away, no reference to the massive difference was made by the diagram or verbally, so I have adjusted training to take this into account so they are not surprised by it.

I have been fortunate that none of my candidates has found any difficulty with ID as yet, but if given the choice everyone I have asked would opt for sign following as there is less to remember and it reduces L & R issues.

Maz.

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#9 Sunday 1st July 2012 22:48:12

MAZ
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From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: Tuesday 13th June 2006
Posts: 838

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

A concern struck me a few days ago, when these diagrams are used the examiner HAS to stop the car in a specific place to fit in with he map, on a test this week a pupil immediately after turning left into a side road was asked to pull up on the left, due to the closeness to the junction of parked cars, the pupil was about to carry on to find a "better" place to stop, as I have advised them all to do in such situations, however the examiner was insistent he wanted her to stop "before this car" with little time to signal to the car behind causing the car behind to get "trapped". (A S/F for mirrors before slowing)

She was then shown the diagram for ID which guided her to take the next immediate road on the right! So basically, if she had have driven on to a "better place" the examiner could not have used his planed ID diagram!!!

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#10 Monday 2nd July 2012 07:38:15

collywobs
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From: Tonbridge Kent
Registered: Monday 7th August 2006
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I sat-in on a test recently and was suprised when the DE asked candidate if they would like to see a diagram or just want to hear the directions? The candidate opted to just hear the directions.

I wasn't aware of the changes, but I think it's definitely less confusing!

Apparently, there is a test route in Sevenoaks that includes and combines both directions and follow road signs!


Colin Kentish
Grade 6 DSA Approved Driving Instructor (car)
www.colinkentish.co.uk

Dream as if you'll live for ever
Live as if you'll die today

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#11 Monday 2nd July 2012 08:04:04

Robbie
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From: Shrewsbury
Registered: Sunday 29th February 2004
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

All of my test candidates who are following directions are shown map diagrams.
Although some say they are confusing.

I use a tablet and have some that ive made myself from google maps with black lines drawn on them to show direction.
They are all ok, and some pupils still ask where they are going after the 2nd direction as theyve already forgotten.
I think some of them have trouble remembering the series of directions.
Just the same as road signs they forget to look, or some of the signs are so packed with names they cant find their destination quickly enough, or they are having to study the signs on approach spending too much time reading the sign instead of looking at road ahead

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#12 Monday 2nd July 2012 09:20:23

MGM
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From: Surrey
Registered: Monday 24th October 2011
Posts: 861

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

collywobs wrote:

I sat-in on a test recently and was suprised when the DE asked candidate if they would like to see a diagram or just want to hear the directions? The candidate opted to just hear the directions.

I wasn't aware of the changes, but I think it's definitely less confusing!

Apparently, there is a test route in Sevenoaks that includes and combines both directions and follow road signs!

Most of the tests I've observed have included both. It was made clear in the initial publicity that this was one of the three options.

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#13 Wednesday 21st November 2012 12:04:14

golfball13
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From: Chelmsford, Brentwood, Essex
Registered: Wednesday 22nd August 2007
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I've noticed that the Examiners are doing the same round here. Personally I don't mind the changes as I found the maps tended to confuse some people.


RPL Driving
Driving lessons in Chelmsford, Brentwood, Billericay and other areas of Essex

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#14 Wednesday 21st November 2012 22:39:32

Triplea35
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Registered: Friday 28th September 2012
Posts: 526

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I am still sitting in on most tests so see it regularly.

From my main TC,
When it was first introduced it was road signs or verbal directions. For the verbal directions a 'map' was shown and usually done in two stages with 3 directions in each stage.
Then a few independents were introduced where it was  3 directions and then following route signs for around 3  junctions.
Then a combination of the two were introduced at once  ie 'Turn right at the end of the road and then follow the signs for.....'
A couple of months ago they stopped showing the 'maps' and just offered to show them if the pupil wanted.

In recent weeks they have even stopped offering to show the maps so I presume the pupil would have to know of them and the confidence on test to ask.

I did create some laminated maps but no longer use them. I advise pupils to ask in good time if any doubt, but few bother, and it hardly matters if they do go the wrong way as long as they do it safely.

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#15 Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:00:17

Triplea35
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Registered: Friday 28th September 2012
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Maz , no disrespect but was this one of the 4 tests you have sat in on in 24 years, or are you just going on the pupils account?

Certainly in my area the starts of all independent drives have fairly long approach roads to the first junction so usually plenty of room to pull over before it starts.

However the start of the independent drive can often be from a controlled stop/angle start or a hill start.

Your account that the Examiner was specifically telling the pupil to pull up 'before this car' would suggest that examiner was instructing the pupil to carry out the controlled stop element, so the fault arising from that and perhaps nothing to do with the independent drive.

Last edited by Triplea35 (Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:10:02)

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#16 Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:11:54

Roadmaster
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Registered: Thursday 4th March 2004
Posts: 5,679

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Certainly in my area the starts of all independent drives have fairly long approach roads to the first junction so usually plenty of room to pull over before it starts.

Lucky for you.  Hope you never have to work in an area which doesn't or your pass rate might start to drop.

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#17 Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:22:50

Triplea35
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Registered: Friday 28th September 2012
Posts: 526

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I won't bite Roadmaster  tongue
The point I was making was that it may have had little to do with the independent drive and  the type of start wasn't  mentioned in any earlier posts so was actually trying to make a constructive comment, unlike yours!

Last edited by Triplea35 (Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:27:38)

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#18 Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:46:29

martin Williams
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Registered: Friday 26th June 2009
Posts: 1,144

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Triplea35 wrote:

independent drive can often be from a controlled stop

Your account that the Examiner was specifically telling the pupil to pull up 'before this car' would suggest that examiner was instructing the pupil to carry out the controlled stop element, so the fault arising from that and perhaps nothing to do with the independent drive.

 
They have a strange way of conducting the controlled stop in your area. Don't they just look behind to make sure it's safe put their hand up and say stop? I have never had one when they say ' pull up before this car.

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#19 Thursday 22nd November 2012 09:59:52

MGM
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From: Surrey
Registered: Monday 24th October 2011
Posts: 861

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

martin Williams wrote:
Triplea35 wrote:

independent drive can often be from a controlled stop

Your account that the Examiner was specifically telling the pupil to pull up 'before this car' would suggest that examiner was instructing the pupil to carry out the controlled stop element, so the fault arising from that and perhaps nothing to do with the independent drive.

 
They have a strange way of conducting the controlled stop in your area. Don't they just look behind to make sure it's safe put their hand up and say stop? I have never had one when they say ' pull up before this car.

Are you confusing the controlled stop with the emergency stop? Or are you being satirical?

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#20 Thursday 22nd November 2012 10:49:04

Promanade
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

martin Williams wrote:

 
They have a strange way of conducting the controlled stop in your area. Don't they just look behind to make sure it's safe put their hand up and say stop? I have never had one when they say ' pull up before this car.

Martin a controlled stop is not always an emergency stop!

#21 Thursday 22nd November 2012 13:31:48

martin Williams
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Registered: Friday 26th June 2009
Posts: 1,144

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Promanade wrote:
martin Williams wrote:

 
They have a strange way of conducting the controlled stop in your area. Don't they just look behind to make sure it's safe put their hand up and say stop? I have never had one when they say ' pull up before this car.

Martin a controlled stop is not always an emergency stop!

Thank you Promedade.

Well i have learnt something today as i was under the impression that the 'controlled stop element' of the driving test was the emergency stop as that is what it is called on the DL25 form and that all other stop are called normal stops.

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#22 Thursday 22nd November 2012 14:28:12

MGM
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From: Surrey
Registered: Monday 24th October 2011
Posts: 861

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

martin Williams wrote:
Promanade wrote:
martin Williams wrote:

 
They have a strange way of conducting the controlled stop in your area. Don't they just look behind to make sure it's safe put their hand up and say stop? I have never had one when they say ' pull up before this car.

Martin a controlled stop is not always an emergency stop!

Thank you Promedade.

Well i have learnt something today as i was under the impression that the 'controlled stop element' of the driving test was the emergency stop as that is what it is called on the DL25 form and that all other stop are called normal stops.

Some years ago, for reasons best known to themselves, the DSA started calling the emergency stop a "controlled" stop.

More recently ( I think about 2 years ago, but time flies when you're having fun wink ), they've been required to carry out a controlled stop (i.e. "pull up behind that car") on every test to fall in line with EU requirements. To avoid confusion (?) they then went back to using the term "emergency stop", but just to add to the fun they haven't yet changed the DL25.

I'm not keen on the term 'controlled' for either. It implies that all other stops are uncontrolled!

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#23 Thursday 22nd November 2012 14:32:04

Promanade
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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Martin it is not called the "emergency stop" on the DL25 it is called the "controlled stop"
the examiner can ask the candidate to pull up in a given place for example "before you reach the next vehicle, leave yourself enough room to get out"
this would be classed a controlled stop. Feel free to verify this with your local examiners i am sure you have a good enough rapport with them smile

#24 Thursday 22nd November 2012 15:03:13

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: Friday 28th September 2012
Posts: 526

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

martin Williams wrote:
Promanade wrote:
martin Williams wrote:

 
They have a strange way of conducting the controlled stop in your area. Don't they just look behind to make sure it's safe put their hand up and say stop? I have never had one when they say ' pull up before this car.

Martin a controlled stop is not always an emergency stop!

Thank you Promedade.

Well i have learnt something today as i was under the impression that the 'controlled stop element' of the driving test was the emergency stop as that is what it is called on the DL25 form and that all other stop are called normal stops.


Soz been out all morning or would have responded to you in person Martin Williams. No need to apologise for the sarcasm which backfired big_smile
If my post initiated learning to take place then I am more than happy wink

Last edited by Triplea35 (Thursday 22nd November 2012 15:04:40)

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#25 Thursday 22nd November 2012 20:47:08

martin Williams
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Registered: Friday 26th June 2009
Posts: 1,144

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Promanade wrote:

Martin it is not called the "emergency stop" on the DL25 it is called the "controlled stop"

Yes i know that. That's why i answered Tripleas post the way i did.

I was under the impression that when they removed one of the reversing exercises and replaced it with the independent drive to conform with EU regulations which require 2 manoeuvres they introduced the angle start and called it a manoeuvre. I had no idea pulling in before the car to do the angled start is called a controlled stop on tests. So where is it marked if the pupil pulls up to far back from the parked car?

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