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#26 02-06-10 07:46:08

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

As long as you add "in some cases".

It would be totally wrong for someone to suggest that the company was unable to provide training in a timely manner in ALL CASES. That would mislead people, especially since one of the two cases they examined wasn't about timely training but ill health.

Let's not forget that all companies providing ADI training are turning them out into a market which is allegedly saturated. And all companies providing ADI training have their detractors. We must be careful not to be too biased when considering the situation...... for whatever reason.

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02-06-10 07:46:08

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Re: RED Driving School and LVG




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#27 02-06-10 08:34:04

Target
Verified Member
From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
Website

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Red were all but a small driving school when I started. All but less than 10 instructors were working there, in fact I dont think they even had someone on the swtich board to answer calls.

The internet was not wide spread, I would go into central London for access and it was slow and awkward to use. That was within the last 10 years, and we have just bought a colour TV tongue

However. Dispite all whats said, all whats been written, all what we know from other instructors and trainers, schools etc etc.

There are still those who just do not seem to see the light.

Is it no different to anyone now starting their training to becoming an instructor who cannot investigate the process online to be fouled by the adverts claiming you can earn £30k.


Approved Driving Instructor ADI(car)
Cardington Grade (A) Diamond Special DIA MSA IAM ROSPA (Silver)
QEF Mobility Qualified
Taxi Driver Training DATT
BTEC Qualified Assessor
www.targettuition.co.uk
http://www.facebook.com/TargetTuition

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#28 02-06-10 09:45:54

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Like I say, Red are not the only company (and that includes independent trainers) making those claims - and worse.

You are right that some people don't see the light (or listen to the reality). They just think they do.

If Red is doing something that no one else is doing and which is illegal then they should be hung, drawn and qaurtered.

Those who see the light perhaps ought to show where this is happening and try accepting that just because someone says something doesn't mean they are right.

Some people start off hating Red. After that they just imagine seeing lights...

If Red disappeared, then there'd be another Numero Uno "earn £40,000 work your own hours" outfit waiting smugly to take over the position. There always will be.

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#29 02-06-10 11:25:23

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

What exactly is the gripes about REDs advertising?

Flexible hours? work the hours you want?
1* "and the days and hours that fit around the rest of your life"

1*. "I wanted my own business with no one else to interfere with my diary or customers. This has given me flexibility to work when I want to."

1* "I love my job. The flexibility and my customers give me so much satisfaction"


Choice of where to work?
1* "You can choose where you want to work."

2* Earn upto £30k per year?

"Estimated weekly income from lessons = £1040.00
Estimated annual income from lessons = £52000.00

Net weekly income before tax and national insurance = £741.11
Net annual income before tax and national insurance = £37055.50 "


All of the above is inline with REDs advertising.

The only thing is........ It's lifted directly off of the AA website.

1*. Taken directly from AA website, quotes are from AA text and their quotes from 1 of their instructors.
http://www.theaa.com/driving-school/ins … uctor.html


2*. taken from the earnings calculator based on East London, 40 hours per week with 2 weeks holiday.
http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/drivi … result.jsp

and yes, BSM have VERY similar statements on their website too. I just chose AA because I already had the webpage open.

There isn NOTHING wrong with REDs advertising.
However, their aftersales performance is regularly brought into question. Their promises, direct or indirect through "open" statements by the sales teams AND their published litriture is often not experienced by those purchasing training courses.

Every business, big or small, will not be able to satisfy all of their clients. however, it should be the constant aim of any business to strive to minimise disgruntlement of it's clients, and when disputes arise, to try to settle them quickly and fairly and to the relative satisfaction of all parties.
It is this aspect of how Red conducts itself that is the source of so much resentment. failure to provide adequate training at times expected by it's clients, in the form alluded to by its sales teams and litriture.

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#30 02-06-10 11:39:35

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Absolutely, Kevin. Good post.

And "advice" on how to improve it needs to come from impartial and knowledgeable sources. Not from bitter people, or those with hidden motives.

There are a few other schools you could have picked....... some advertising up to £40k.

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#31 02-06-10 16:32:36

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Provided the advertising statements can be proven there is nothing wrong in making such statements. Indeed the Advertising Standards Authority exists to ensure this is the case. As Kevin said it what happens afterwards when the claims are not properly elaborated upon or misrepresented where the real deception takes place.

When people are misled into believing it is virtually like a life long salaried job position with work guaranteed due to the acute shortage of instructors, requiring you to pass a relatively simple exam which few people fail after attending a short but highly flexible local training course and which will be completed in a few weeks, well before you need to pay back the loan at 29% Apr etc. If you can talk and drive at the same time you are ideal and virtually assured of success.

The trick (deception) is to give punters the above impression of the business opportunity or something close to it and then get them to signed up before they can do any real research and discover what is really is being offered while being careful to make sure any misrepresentations are not in writting. Lets face it if you were made redundant or were unemployed wouldn't you sign a loan agreement if you thought you could get a recession proof job for life with as much work as you wanted seemingly guranteed?

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#32 02-06-10 20:05:48

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

There is no "deception". Just bad service. And only then in some cases.

All companies have examples of poor service hidden in their closets - they just sometimes like to air other peoples dirty washing.

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#33 02-06-10 20:47:00

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

You are right the recent "Don't get done get Dom" BBC programme about Red driving school primarily related to the difficulty getting in-car training sessions in a timely manner with one calculating that at the current rate it would take Red two years to complete the training and not the 16 weeks suggested at the original presentation.

As Kevin said it wasn't the fact that there was a problem (which any company could suffer from for any number of reasons) it was the fact that nobody within the organisation seemed to care and nothing was being done to resolve it. Similarily, the people with bad health were also being totally ignored. Even Dom couldn't get to speak to anyone in person. In the end under pressure Red did finally resolve the problems.

I would like to think Red have learnt a valuable lesson from this programme which is not to hide from problems but to tackle them head on before they fester. As you say all Companies have these types of problems. Its not the problem so much as the way they weren't dealt with.

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#34 02-06-10 20:53:46

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Dom DID get to speak to someone. He resolved the issue. He just had difficulty - in much the same way you have difficulty if you want to get money back off BT, Virgin Media, or your mobile phone company. Or that Gas Co. Dom "did" last week. In fact, any of the companies Dom "does". I think it is important to touch base with reality now and then when dealing with customer complaints as an interested third party.

The difficulty in getting training related to the one (maybe two) people the show was about. I don't doubt there are more.

But I hope you realise that is isn't ALL of them either.

Just because there was a "Dom" show about it doesn't mean as much as people like to believe.

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#35 02-06-10 21:16:40

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

As Dom said he had been contacted by 11 people but had refused to accept any further complaints. I think 4 where unhappy with the loan agreement they had signed which Dom couldn't do anything about, 6 had problems getting decent qualilty training in a timely manner and one had health issues. Clearly only a small percentage of the many thousands of people being trained by Red were represented by the programme.

One guy had a second heart attack while trying to get a refund following his first heart attack. Under ORDIT rules such individuals are allowed a refund and Red are oblidged to follow these rules if they wish to remain on ORDIT. Naturally it would be prudent of the Company to ask for a letter from the doctor/consultant confirming the students situation and the likely hood of them being able to complete the training or undertake the job before determining whether a refund should be granted.

Whether you are Red driving School, BT or indeed any other company if you mess people about to this degree you deserve the bad publicity it may bring.

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#36 02-06-10 21:29:45

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

So there you go. The majority of complaints were unfounded.

As Kevin has pointed out elsewhere, the ORDIT guidelines are only valid if the relevant proof is provided. Until he had the doctors note the heart attack victim was simply someone trying to avoid paying (like the ones you mentioned).

Getting loan agreements cancelled is hard - even when its easy. Don't try and suggest this is specific to Red.

If a company has complainers in its wake then it gets bad publicity automatically. All companies do. It's the way of the world.

What no company needs is people with vested interests in seeing harm done to it putting dramatic and inaccurate spin on selected pieces of information. It certainly doesn't need those interested parties wishing it ill and saying it deserves the bad publicity - particularly when some of those parties have been instrumental in creating the bad publicity over an extended period of time.

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#37 03-06-10 00:04:04

Adi1234
Guest

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

I think The Training part of red is flawed But fair. I do have some serious issues about the actual driving school red manage. I have not heard one good thing about the actual driving school. I have heard very bad things about them flooding the area with trainee instructors that have not been prepared for teaching real pupils. No work coming in for the fully qualified Adi `s.

#38 03-06-10 08:42:24

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

As an aside, I notice that Dom is "doing" British Gas today. So far they are getting a right slating from people who have had problems with boilers. Dom cannot get in contact with the correct people via telephone (a common problem on his shows).

British Gas has around 15 million customers. The larger and more successful a company is, the more prominent the complaints become.

British Gas will still be British Gas, and it will still have 15 million customers, when the show finishes.

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#39 03-06-10 16:49:37

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

I do have some serious issues about the actual driving school red manage. I have not heard one good thing about the actual driving school. I have heard very bad things about them flooding the area with trainee instructors that have not been prepared for teaching real pupils. No work coming in for the fully qualified Adi `s.

Yes, I saw these comments on Facebook:

Amanda Hilaire

"Hi, I am currently with Red Driving School as a PDI. I too was misled into signing the contact by promises of a never ending supply of pupils = vast earnings!

All I can say on that matter is bulls**t!

I have been struggling since day one! No where near enough pupils to cover my franchise costs. A less than helpful Business development manager, when I call him for help the only thing he ever says is "leave it with me", so I do, but that’s where it ends! Never get my calls returned, EVER!

I have now decided to cut my losses and cancel my direct debit, let them take me to court; will offer them a fiver a week!

I feel completely 100% shafted by Red, I wouldn’t suggest to my worst enemy to join them, they are simply rip off merchants!

Good luck to anyone who is stupid enough to join after reading this!

I just feel really sad and let down and a little bit silly for believing the hype!"

Calum Campbell

"Hi Emma, I am in the same situation as everyone above. My fiance took out the training loan for me to get started with Red in March 2009. We were guaranteed qualified within 12 weeks of starting the training and a full diary 2 weeks later.We were told not to worry about the loan as I would have a full diary of pupils and be able to pay it back within the year before the interest got added on. Ha Ha what a joke!!! Its now Aug 2010 I have been paying the loan back since March and am still not qualified with Red."

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#40 03-06-10 18:05:02

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

As I've said before, there are more schools than Red flooding the market with PDIs and ADIs, and making claims of up to £40,000 earnings (they used to claim even more)........  wink

I hope we're not suggesting that these "other" schools can do what Red is claiming, and that Red can't. Because it looks that way.

As I also said, if Red were to disappear, there would be another waiting in the wings to take its place. In fact I suspect that that is what some people are hoping for and have been for some time with their persistent criticisms of things which are simply not specific to Red.

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#41 03-06-10 19:28:39

finch
Member
Registered: 17-09-09
Posts: 168

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

A few years ago I went withTIC,which is now RED, I passed everthing first time but if I had not put a written complaint in and they had not changed my trainer I don't think I would be where I am now. More recently I went for a interview to be a Instructor Trainer and although I was offered the job, the issue that seemed to bother the HR representative most  was the fact that I had a out of date SP30 on my licence and I had not had it removed. Due to personal circumstances I could not take up the position,but some months later contact was made again and I was invited to another interview at a different Training Centre, I attended and most aspects in the interview were covered? but what did concern me was the people doing the interview had less knowledge than I on certain subjects and they commented on this. While the lack of knowledge shown  mainly concerned Fleet training/Taxi Training I seemed a bit confused and I believe I talked myself out of a job,but every cloud has a silver lining and am now busy and happy doing all aspects of Driver Education and Training so perhaps it was a lucky break 

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#42 04-06-10 08:42:49

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

I hope we're not suggesting that these "other" schools can do what Red is claiming, and that Red can't. Because it looks that way.

You are correct some other driving instructor training companies are the same if not worse than Red. I think the main reason Red seem to be picked on more than the others is simple because of the numbers involved. A point you have made on a number of occasions.

Based on their accounts it can be seen Red have been selling upwards of 10,000 driving instructor training courses per year and over the last 10 years since Red driving school was set up in 1999 they have probably sold more than 70,000 driving instructor training courses in total.  These sales accounted for over 94% of Reds total business according to its last published accounts with only 6% relating to the operation of the actual driving school.

Indeed last year with sales over £40 million Red probable sold well over 50% of all driving instructor training courses in the UK making them bigger than all the other companies selling driving instructor training courses put together. Amazingly despite this they went bust earlier this year owing over £6 million as driving instructor course sales slumped. As they quote “Red didn't become the biggest without being the best”. The question is the best at what? Red are also more prominent than these other companies who are keen to keep a low profile for obvious reasons and let Red take all the flack.

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#43 04-06-10 09:06:55

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

...as YOU have said before. Many times.

I still fail to see (publicly anyway, at the moment wink ) why you should be so interested in the accounts of a company which is remarkably similar to - just bigger than - certain other companies looking enviously up at the podium and trying to knock Red off it.

Of coure, I DO know exactly why. So why don't you just leave it for a while, Macca? Your work is done wink

Even schools which don't have such a bad reputation as Red are still making all the claims (and worse) that Red does, still have people with customer complaints to make, and so on. They are still flooding an allegedly flooded market with PDIs and ADIs, competing for work which is allegedly not there.

So apart from the name, they are little better than Red and it isn't worth keep going on about it....... unless they have some other motive wink

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#44 04-06-10 12:41:11

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

I agree with you about the other driving instructor training companies like Red. You are spot on. However, I am not convinced any of them could step into Reds shoes if they were to go under for a second time. The gap would not be filled in my view and the market would again return to something more sustainable.

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#45 04-06-10 15:26:42

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Clever play on words, Macca lol

I am referring to ALL training companies who advertise inflated earnings and make other ultra-positive comments in their advertising which aren't reflected in real life. You know, the very things only Red is accused of by certain types - like being your own boss, and working your own hours, and much, much more besides.

I'm thinking of companies who (for example) think they are better than anyone else, who advertised £40,000 plus until recently (for example), and who currently advertise £30,000 (for example), or still mention "up to £40,000" without explaining that this MUST be a turnover figure and not gross income before tax. Companies who cleverly use web forums to promote their own schools (for example), or who use them to grind their own personal axes (for example).

So not just the ones you think are like Red. I mean ALL of the ones who use the same advertising scheme they are so critical of when Red does it wink

I can think of one person at least on here who was ultra in favour of one such company when he trained with them and joined the franchise a couple of years ago, but who more recently said he left because they weren't supplying work.

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#46 04-06-10 18:07:51

finch
Member
Registered: 17-09-09
Posts: 168

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

For Gods sake Aspyre give it a rest and go and do some work.

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#47 04-06-10 20:12:35

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

Sorry. You mean you want me to leave you people to pursue your agendas? Nah! We need to keep the balance - can't have it totally one-sided, can we?

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#48 07-08-10 17:12:38

Macca
Verified Member
Registered: 01-11-04
Posts: 193

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

The BBC programme Don't Get Done - Get Dom featuring Red driving school has now been uploaded to Youtube so if you missed it or indeed the other two major TV consumer protection programmes about them simply logon to Youtube and in the search bar type Red driving school.

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#49 10-08-10 03:53:40

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

For Gods sake  MACCA give it a rest and go and do some work.

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#50 28-08-10 17:17:17

asroxx@yahoo.com
Member
Registered: 03-06-10
Posts: 49
Website

Re: RED Driving School and LVG

I'm feeling much better now that RED it's been rescued

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