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#1 Monday 14th September 2009 15:30:10

mcculde
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From: SOUTH HANTS
Registered: Tuesday 30th September 2008
Posts: 60

Block Changing

I need a little bit of help. As someone who has been an Instructor Trainer and a Fleet trainer for over 3 years I regularly tell PDIs and Corporate drivers to block change as often as possible when appropriate. Recently an ex pupil of mine had an assessment at work and was ripped to shreds by a driver trainer for block changing 2 to 4. He was okay with 3 to 5 but disliked 2 to 4 stating that it damages the engine. The car was a 59 plate. Now this is news to me as I have had PDIs locally in Southampton given driving faults in part 2 tests for not going 2 to 4. Any comments would be appreciated.

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Monday 14th September 2009 15:30:10

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Re: Block Changing



#2 Monday 14th September 2009 15:35:35

FRANKS
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From: WALES
Registered: Monday 5th June 2006
Posts: 530

Re: Block Changing

Think it's a personal view of the assessor, if you're a fleet trainier you should have been able to answer this question.

Block changing does not damage the engine as long as it's done correctly.


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#3 Monday 14th September 2009 20:12:12

hoylake
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From: Heysham
Registered: Friday 21st September 2007
Posts: 1,435
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Re: Block Changing

The only potential problem is finding reverse, by mistake.

This may be true for a learner, but not for a FLH. So don't understand it either


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#4 Monday 14th September 2009 22:10:45

EKAL
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From: East Kilbride
Registered: Sunday 23rd April 2006
Posts: 1,050
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Re: Block Changing

1 - 3 is probably the hardest block to master, but if practiced on a downhill gradient and mastered, it can then easily be carried out if applicable, like ALL block changing up the gears, it has to be appropriate to the car and road layout.

i have usually found that 2- 4 is the easiest and most common.


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#5 Tuesday 15th September 2009 07:20:58

ExAdiNigel
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From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: Monday 13th December 2004
Posts: 4,739

Re: Block Changing

Your ex=pupil needs to flag this problem up with his workplace - the driving assessor they are using is talking rollocks (sp?)

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#6 Tuesday 15th September 2009 08:26:58

Disky
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From: Central Scotland
Registered: Thursday 10th March 2005
Posts: 1,333
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Re: Block Changing

Now this is news to me as I have had PDIs locally in Southampton given driving faults in part 2 tests for not going 2 to 4. Any comments would be appreciated.

I find that this is very strange, a df for not going 2-4,, i would raise this with the TCM and seek clarification on what they want, all cars have differing ratio's etc and what works with one may not work with another.

It must be a regional issue, at our TC, even on part 2's, they look for 3-5 and not 2-4 as here they like 3rd gear in a 30 zone, i dont think we can ever win ! lol

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#7 Tuesday 15th September 2009 09:19:02

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: Monday 12th May 2008
Posts: 1,233
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Re: Block Changing

I need a little bit of help. As someone who has been an Instructor Trainer and a Fleet trainer for over 3 years I regularly tell PDIs and Corporate drivers to block change as often as possible when appropriate. Recently an ex pupil of mine had an assessment at work and was ripped to shreds by a driver trainer for block changing 2 to 4. He was okay with 3 to 5 but disliked 2 to 4 stating that it damages the engine. The car was a 59 plate. Now this is news to me as I have had PDIs locally in Southampton given driving faults in part 2 tests for not going 2 to 4. Any comments would be appreciated.

Just another possible point of view to consider.

As you say in your post "when appropriate" Block changing is not always appropriate, if the ex pupil has got into the habit of skipping 3rd routinely he may be constantly over revving the engine begore gear changing which will increase engine wear. There is also the opposite, changing 2 to 4 too early will increase engine wear.

The interesting point from the OP is "as often as possible" How has the ex pupil interpreted this? In his mind does he believe that block changing is the be all and end all and has he got into the habit of block changing without thought (same as most drivers change sequentially without thought)

It could be that the other trainer has a personal dislike of 2-4 for whatever reason, or it could be he was trying to put across a valid point which has been misunderstood. Have you considered taking the ex pupil for an assessment too see what he's actually doing so that you can see for yourself. What we teach them and what they say they are doing is not always what's actually being done.


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#8 Tuesday 15th September 2009 21:20:44

mcculde
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From: SOUTH HANTS
Registered: Tuesday 30th September 2008
Posts: 60

Re: Block Changing

Thanks for all the comments above. Tony your points are well made. My ex pupil may indeed be changing routinely without thinking about the road ahead i.e steep incline so go up in 3rd. I will clarify with him. My main concern was had I missed some recent change in technique that I should know about. From the comments made it seems that 2 to 4 is okay when appropriate to do so and at the appropriate speed. Any further observations would be helpful

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#9 Thursday 17th September 2009 07:57:31

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: Monday 13th December 2004
Posts: 4,739

Re: Block Changing

I think Tony has summed things up fairly well.  Any gear change, whether block or sequential should be appropriate to the situation.  If someone is over-revving just to get in a block gear change then it is likely to have an adverse effect on the fuel consumption.  3rd to 5th can often be one of the more common changes, particularly on slip roads.  A lot does depend on the individual & the car they're driving.  As mentioned no excessive revving should occur simply to facilitate a block gear change and nor should the engine be made to labour after the block change.  I commonly block change from 2nd to 4th when in town simply using 1st & 2nd to get up to speed.  Out of town I may use 1st, 3rd & 5th.  It really does depend on the situation & the car I am driving though.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#10 Sunday 27th September 2009 19:10:11

guess who
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Registered: Sunday 6th November 2005
Posts: 802

Re: Block Changing

Was this driver trainer a ADI/PDI?

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#11 Wednesday 28th October 2009 18:13:16

ijmoore
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From: Staffordshire
Registered: Wednesday 25th October 2006
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Block Changing

Who ever it was they were not very good! 

I should say there was something wrong if you weren't block changing to be honest, most junction/roundabout approaches is slow in the gear your in (6th/5th) and go directly to 1,2 or 3 depending.........

Upward depends on the car, but 1-3-5/6 has always been a favorite of mine, 1-2-4-6 etc...... 

Maybe it was not appropriate at the time, perhaps approaching a hazard (not any point changing UP) or uphill gradient?

Difficult to tell without been there.....or maybe a little behind with the times?


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#12 Wednesday 24th February 2010 21:51:50

1stcastle
Member
Registered: Monday 8th February 2010
Posts: 12

Re: Block Changing

You doing the right thing-you should block change from 2-4. It will obviously do the engine in if you keep the revs up too long before the gear change. However, what about wear and tear on the clutch and gearbox. They cost a bomb.

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#13 Wednesday 24th February 2010 21:57:30

ijmoore
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From: Staffordshire
Registered: Wednesday 25th October 2006
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Block Changing

Depends on the car, can't see an issue, my car has 105k miles, No clutch yet, or gearbox? Obviously I'm doing something right? And the hammering my clutch and gearbox gets off beginners!

I agree with wear and tear, surely it depends on how you do it though, I mean chaning 20% more going through EACH gear in turn puts wear and tear on gearbox and clutch and engine too?


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#14 Wednesday 24th February 2010 22:12:43

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: Monday 13th December 2004
Posts: 4,739

Re: Block Changing

....-you should block change from 2-4....

Why simply 2nd to 4th?  It depends entirely on the situation!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#15 Wednesday 24th February 2010 22:47:42

Zipper
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From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: Friday 20th August 2004
Posts: 2,711
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Re: Block Changing

We call it "skip shifting" here in the NT

http://www.drivingnt.com/tips/skip.html


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#16 Wednesday 24th February 2010 22:56:42

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: Monday 13th December 2004
Posts: 4,739

Re: Block Changing

As Juliet said back in the 1600's

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
      By any other name would smell as sweet;

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#17 Wednesday 10th March 2010 00:53:31

looprevil
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Registered: Monday 17th March 2008
Posts: 424

Re: Block Changing

Choose a gear that suits the situation ensuring once it's been selected and used the car's speed is at least at the minimun speed for that gear.

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#18 Wednesday 10th March 2010 01:14:47

Adi1234
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Re: Block Changing

When I teach learners I always teach block gear changes going down e.g 4th to 2nd or stopping in 4th then selecting 1st when stationery. Currently I do not teach block gear changes going up through the gears. Mainly because all cars vary I don`t want a pupil to be able to do it in my car but not in there own and be confused and lost. But then again You should be able to learn about the feel of the car and educate the pupils as to when it can be done and what to look out for. I think I will try and integrate some upwards block changing in my learning program. I don`t personally see the problem in revving the car to enable the car to be able to block change upwards. New cars have rev limiters and cannot be over revved from what The garage said to me about my car.

#19 Wednesday 10th March 2010 07:13:37

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: Monday 13th December 2004
Posts: 4,739

Re: Block Changing

....I don`t personally see the problem in revving the car to enable the car to be able to block change upwards.....

But, if you are having to rev the car to enable the block change, what then is the point of the block change?  Isn't reducing fuel consumption one of the reasons for considering block changing up through the gears?  Over-revving teh engine to enable the block change would, surely, negate the benefit of reducing fuel consumption.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#20 Wednesday 10th March 2010 09:02:42

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: Monday 17th March 2008
Posts: 424

Re: Block Changing

When I teach learners I always teach block gear changes going down e.g 4th to 2nd or stopping in 4th then selecting 1st when stationery. Currently I do not teach block gear changes going up through the gears. Mainly because all cars vary I don`t want a pupil to be able to do it in my car but not in there own and be confused and lost. But then again You should be able to learn about the feel of the car and educate the pupils as to when it can be done and what to look out for. I think I will try and integrate some upwards block changing in my learning program. I don`t personally see the problem in revving the car to enable the car to be able to block change upwards. New cars have rev limiters and cannot be over revved from what The garage said to me about my car.

Missing out gears when increasing speed need space, distance and time. I find when teaching in towns and cities the opportunities present themselves less often.  Out of town driving scenarios  present more opportunities to do this.

As with anything the purpose of using a technique should be about the driver doing it because they have the skill and are presented with opportunities to use it. It's not about making sure someone does something just because it is a latest technique and sounds good.

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#21 Wednesday 10th March 2010 09:11:49

Roadmaster
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Registered: Thursday 4th March 2004
Posts: 5,678

Re: Block Changing

........stopping in 4th then selecting 1st when stationery.

So do your pupils have to stop at every junction?

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#22 Wednesday 10th March 2010 09:21:20

jonsmithuk
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Registered: Saturday 27th October 2007
Posts: 403

Re: Block Changing

They do at red lights ! Junction wasn't mentioned .

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#23 Wednesday 10th March 2010 09:27:43

Roadmaster
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Registered: Thursday 4th March 2004
Posts: 5,678

Re: Block Changing

Neither was red lights.   

The quote was:

When I teach learners I always teach block gear changes going down e.g 4th to 2nd or stopping in 4th then selecting 1st when stationery

So does that mean just at red lights, or every time, including junctions?  That's what I was asking.
I teach going from 4th to 1st on approach to junctions, so that we don't necessarily have to stop.

p.s.  Do they not put traffic lights at junctions?

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#24 Tuesday 26th October 2010 13:56:08

ijmoore
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From: Staffordshire
Registered: Wednesday 25th October 2006
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: Block Changing

Just read this, never heard so much rubbish in all my life. What qualifications did the driver trainer have? Roadcraft clearly advises brakes are to slow, and gears to go. So after a quick NSL road turning left or eight into a clear open wide juction I'd do 4-2 all day long. If I haven't braked that may be a different story but come on!


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Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#25 Tuesday 26th October 2010 22:39:43

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: Tuesday 12th October 2004
Posts: 305

Re: Block Changing

Can I ask a question on this subject before I ask my main question as it may get answered straight off and I wont need to ask another,some of you mention block changing from 1-3 when/why would this selection be done please.
Stephen

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